View Poll Results: What do you think clerics need most in the game?

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  • invis plz * hands tunare an invis scroll* read this plz

    19 40.43%
  • More Undead debuffs and Dmg * I want to make undead fear the cleric again*

    10 21.28%
  • Heals < There allways room for more heals in my spell book*

    12 25.53%
  • sight based buffs * see invis ect* For those D@D buffs true sight ect

    0 0%
  • Other < I have posted below somthing not in this poll*

    6 12.77%
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Thread: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I wouldn't say it's bad to argue, as long as it's constructive debating instead of red mist

    It's not a bad thing having to use all the tools available. As content gets harder (dependant on gear more than anything), so should the requirement of "skill" for a given class. In fact, I'm pretty certain that's what the developers want instead of any class just repeating the same one spell over and over, and why they've always wanted to move us away from chaining CH.

    I group with warriors who have 30k hp in zones like Crystallos, and I'm not having a problem using Pious Elixir+Promised Renewal with AHLs now and then, desperate/11th now and then. I try not to depend on arbitrations unless it's absolutely necessary (one of the watchful sentries without a mezzer for one and only root CC, or a double trash pull). Mana isn't really a problem unless the mobs decide to get nasty, or, we have multiple pulls.

    How long could they last in Crystallos without a heal? That's a function of inc dps as a result of their AC+evasion+hp. Let's say on average, without slow but druid atk debuffs with 1762 Raw AC and no shield use, they're hovering around 1.4k adps (but spiking up to say 1.8-9k in 30-60s worth sometimes, sometimes haveing a dry session of 1.1kish).

    30k/1.4k = ~21.43s (a little more if you factor in delay death)

    That's how long on average that tank would survive without a heal against the majority of mobs from full HP to death, assuming there was no variance at all, no spike dps of any kind. A tank with more Raw AC and using a good shield would inevitably be easier to heal and take less inc dps. Naturally, there are spikes, they happen. Larger, sudden drops. That's what we have the big bomb heals [and crits] for, to counter those.

    If one was just chaining A:HL and there were no spikes at all, how many A:HLs could they chain in that time? 30% spell haste + 10% from buff. ~2.3s +2.25s cast time (1386 heal/sec worth without any crits, fwiw with a 45% heal focus, with crits I forget since I can't recall the % from gift in SoF but it's naturally more). You can cast 4 whole lights in the meantime. You could in theory, cast 2 CHs although that would be a bad idea because CH would fall behind in Heal/Sec potential and the tank would die.

    Pious Elixir, without any crits, has the heal/sec potential of 195 heal/sec. With healing boon, it's again more than that. But let's say each tick it countered exactly that amount of dps, that leaves ~1205 adps worth (which also happens to be less dps than chaining ahl hps without crits).

    More recent spells have greater power, all things equal in foci, with a larger mana cost.

    My point with all this is, if with these raid tanks people have fears that heals are coming up short with their (30k+) HP alone, that's just not true. If Omens heals are *still* working with those (tanks assuming they have sufficient AC), with a more recent TSS heal (could just not use Promised, but that would burn more mana), then with level appropriate foci to the gear those tanks have, the more recent spells in healing power are even more sufficient to counter the raw mob power. OoW was a long time ago. Their raid gear makes us able to use those older heals to greater sufficiency. With worse mitigation, one would have to step up the heals with newer more powerful ones. Which is a result of the DPS increasing needing more HPS to counter. Which has been my point all along.

    I could also point out that druids/shamen are intended to be viable group healers in the game too. Good druids/shamen can keep these same tanks up in Crystallos (and t3) with heals that are much much worse than our own, but for them it is neither easy nor as mana efficient as it would be for us. When we start having problems keeping up with inc dps, it inevitably becomes impossible for either of them to heal. That, in the end, is content that is simply not balanced.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-09-2008 at 11:54 AM.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Lluianae said in post #31 :
    I wouldn't say it's bad to argue, as long as it's constructive debating instead of red mist

    It's not a bad thing having to use all the tools available. As content gets harder (dependant on gear more than anything), so should the requirement of &quot;skill&quot; for a given class. In fact, I'm pretty certain that's what the developers want instead of any class just repeating the same one spell over and over, and why they've always wanted to move us away from chaining CH.

    I group with warriors who have 30k hp in zones like Crystallos, and I'm not having a problem using Pious Elixir+Promised Renewal with AHLs now and then, desperate/11th now and then. I try not to depend on arbitrations unless it's absolutely necessary (one of the watchful sentries without a mezzer for one and only root CC, or a double trash pull). Mana isn't really a problem unless the mobs decide to get nasty, or, we have multiple pulls.

    How long could they last in Crystallos without a heal? That's a function of inc dps as a result of their AC+evasion+hp. Let's say on average, without slow but druid atk debuffs with 1762 Raw AC and no shield use, they're hovering around 1.4k adps (but spiking up to say 1.8-9k in 30-60s worth sometimes, sometimes haveing a dry session of 1.1kish).

    30k/1.4k = ~21.43s (a little more if you factor in delay death)

    That's how long on average that tank would survive without a heal against the majority of mobs from full HP to death, assuming there was no variance at all, no spike dps of any kind. A tank with more Raw AC and using a good shield would inevitably be easier to heal and take less inc dps. Naturally, there are spikes, they happen. Larger, sudden drops. That's what we have the big bomb heals [and crits] for, to counter those.

    If one was just chaining A:HL and there were no spikes at all, how many A:HLs could they chain in that time? 30% spell haste + 10% from buff. ~2.3s +2.25s cast time (1386 heal/sec worth without any crits, fwiw with a 45% heal focus, with crits I forget since I can't recall the % from gift in SoF but it's naturally more). You can cast 4 whole lights in the meantime. You could in theory, cast 2 CHs although that would be a bad idea because CH would fall behind in Heal/Sec potential and the tank would die.

    Pious Elixir, without any crits, has the heal/sec potential of 195 heal/sec. With healing boon, it's again more than that. But let's say each tick it countered exactly that amount of dps, that leaves ~1205 adps worth (which also happens to be less dps than chaining ahl hps without crits).

    More recent spells have greater power, all things equal in foci, with a larger mana cost.

    My point with all this is, if with these raid tanks people have fears that heals are coming up short with their (30k+) HP alone, that's just not true. If Omens heals are *still* working with those (tanks assuming they have sufficient AC), with a more recent TSS heal (could just not use Promised, but that would burn more mana), then with level appropriate foci to the gear those tanks have, the more recent spells in healing power are even more sufficient to counter the raw mob power. OoW was a long time ago. Their raid gear makes us able to use those older heals to greater sufficiency. With worse mitigation, one would have to step up the heals with newer more powerful ones. Which is a result of the DPS increasing needing more HPS to counter. Which has been my point all along.

    I could also point out that druids/shamen are intended to be viable group healers in the game too. Good druids/shamen can keep these same tanks up in Crystallos (and t3) with heals that are much much worse than our own, but for them it is neither easy nor as mana efficient as it would be for us. When we start having problems keeping up with inc dps, it inevitably becomes impossible for either of them to heal. That, in the end, is content that is simply not balanced.
    OH ok i get it , i just suck then. According to you druids and shaman can heal tanks solo in Crystallos with inferior heals , i must just have poor skills... kk gotcha.

    Once the druids and shaman really can heal just as well as a cleric (and have the inclination) and add slows/attack debuff and dps , where do you think clerics will wind up? oh, that's right....we can go solo /doh.

    A little concern for where clerics might wind up once the devs "goals" are going might be appropriate?

    fixed that for you, i figured if you could quote people and call their quotes ignorant, or tell people how their "arguments" (your word btw not theirs) were skewed and spurious, you could handle hearing what other people thought. It was in no way an attack , simply my 2cp.
    Last edited by Silye; 02-09-2008 at 01:52 PM.
    Silye

  3. #33
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    You misconstrue what I have said.

    1) I did not say you sucked, I merely gave my 2cp on the situation just as you have done. Nor do I think that you suck as a healer, I don't even know how you fair as I've never grouped with you. I am not so low as to say "Oh, you're a bad healer because I think so". I have seen druids and shamen heal tanks in Crystallos and said how for them it is not easy (at all) nor mana efficient - that is not a lie. How that = you suck, well, that's down to your interpretation of it. However, it is wise to bear in mind, if they are MHing Crystallos they have 0 opportunity to DPS (they are totally focused on heals or the tank will die) and for the sake of ease, often prefer another person doing the debuffs instead of doing all of it.

    2) Where on earth did I say increase tank HPs instead of better healing? I can't see where anything I've written has said that. I have merely said that healing is a function of inc damage per second being countered, be it average damage per second, or spike damage per second. I have said that the function of this is more complex than max HP. Also, look a few posts up - I supported more healing.

    3) How have I taken clerics into the road of being useless? Heh, I don't even have the power nor influence to do that. A bold statement just because you're not fond of my views. However, who do you think along with others spent ages just making sure Promised Renewal even functioned, that got the HP% limiter on 11th hour from <20% to 5%, that with persistence got Prathun to finally add an upgrade to Word of Vivification (Word of Vivacity)? Along with other things, but that was only as Llu the player trying to make sure clerics didn't get the short end. I help make things happen but no correspondent has the power for magnaminous change for their classes.

    4) I can appreciate how good priests are when played to their fullest potential. I have seen druids be good healers just as I have seen some truely abysmal druid healers, just as I have seen some good, and abysmal shamen and cleric healers in all these years. A cleric at the top of their game will always outshine a druid or shaman in healing by a significant margin. That will, and always should, be true. They will never heal as well as we do.

    With your views and inability to take in account for others views , it's pointless to talk about getting heal spells upgraded to the point of scaling with tanks hps for the cleric class.
    I do take into account other views, Silye. Believe what you must, but I also have my own views as well on matters because shockingly, I am a player just like everyone else. Those views don't in any way obsolete the views of others when it comes to information submission. Take invis, I don't think we need it as a spell or AA and I know that the chances of it happening are remote. I still had it listed in what I sent off for class AA ideas. That's really ignoring the views of others, isn't it?

    I just think the max tank HP argument is spurious and skewed because it leaves out too many factors. You don't have to like my opinion on that, but instead of attacking me, attack the message.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-09-2008 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    edited for you then.
    Silye

  5. #35
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Lluianae said in post #31 :
    I'm pretty certain that's what the developers want instead of any class just repeating the same one spell over and over, and why they've always wanted to move us away from chaining CH.

    heh instead of casting CH over and over i am casting light over and over. and at times, if i get behind, i am praying for a crit. i don't have the 11th hour yet, so can't coment on using it. and i already admited before that i haven't memed PR since my return. so i know i am not using all of the tools.

    i do think so far in the upper lvl zones of the new expansion we are locked into just healing. maybe once my gear catches up to the zones that won't be the case. in factory all i can do is spam light and hope no one else gets hit. because as soon as i heal someone else, i am now "behind" on the tank. and praying for a crit to get in the "safety" zone of the tanks hp again.

    hmmm, i need to look at more of our heals again. maybe i should use DR again as well.

    i also have only had this "problem" in one zone.

    Keyera
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    Sprinting over the fields, swinging a mighty hammer, cometh Keyera! And she gives a bloodthirsty roar:

    "I'm going to bludgeon you into the stuff of nightmares!"

  6. #36
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Just to reinforce what you edited Silye, I did not say they were ignorant - I said that quote was. Ditto for the certain arguments, I think those arguments are spurious and skewed. The message, not the person saying it. Attacking people is not a means of constructive debating.

    I think it is ignorant to liken us to druids and shamen for merely using patch heals over CH. We are nothing like them, and after all my guild has been through with low priest numbers on raids, I know what I've come to appreciate over the past year of what low cleric numbers can do working together. When certain guilds have commented doing a certain script with less than x priests is impossible, we have shown that that isn't true. If we didn't press on with trying to win despite our numbers situation, we as a guild would have most certainly died and that is the last thing any member/officer of any guild wants to see happen.

    Keyera does bring up a good point, in that whilst they wanted us to shift from chaining CH, it has resulted into more of a light chaining situation. However I do see it as different, as we are not in a 12.25s casting lock but instead one that is more broken up, giving the opportunity to cast more different things in between. Talking from my own experience, whilst lights for myself are the main heal being used, it's not the only one I choose to cast and I think that's the difference in that people have the options of using other tools to achieve the same or better, instead of depending on just one single element.

    The one [type of] spell chaining thing is something that can also be seen with what they did with Wizards. Before, it was pretty much expected burn dps to cycle instants over. The devs/prathun didn't like that and changes were done as a result.

    Steam Factory is a rough zone. Density is silly, adds are a pain. The nameds are/were for the most part seriously overpowered. Heh, some names in SoF are just plain stupid. There was this group named in Fort Mechanotus that spawned nearby our raid whilst we were gathering for Meldrath's Mansion. So we pulled it. 90% of the raid instantly died to several spammed 10k base AEs in a second, I still have the screenshot for it. We were all thinking wtf happened? When a group named can destroy a raid like that without them even doing anything, something is messed up.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-09-2008 at 03:33 PM.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Lluianae said in post #36 :Keyera does bring up a good point, in that whilst they wanted us to shift from chaining CH, it has resulted into more of a light chaining situation. However I do see it as different, as we are not in a 12.25s casting lock but instead one that is more broken up, giving the opportunity to cast more different things in between. Talking from my own experience, whilst lights for myself are the main heal being used, it's not the only one I choose to cast and I think that's the difference in that people have the options of using other tools to achieve the same or better, instead of depending on just one single element.[/B]
    This was the point of my post that you called ignorant, that we're ending up chaining patch heals like a druid or shaman. While I do disagree with you on the max tank hp issue, that is not the sole basis for feeling that we're falling behind in healing strength. You write of having multiple tools to mix up our healing strategies, yet you say in this post that you yourself end up chaining lights most of the time.

    I don't have a problem with changing strategies, nor am I too ignorant to figure out how to use the new tools we've been given. I'm simply suggesting a long standing and favorite tool that is now obsolete to be shinied up and made useful again. If the dev's intention is to get us away from chaining cheals, only to make us end up chaining lights, how does that change gameplay (aside from teaching us to duck at the last second and try to burn less mana)?
    Celedine Crashcart
    80 Exemplar of Tunare
    Retired Hussy

  8. #38
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I completely agree with Key's post that once you fall behind tho , there isn't a very reliable way to get the tank back up in the safe zone if your "tools" (which are now necessities") are on timers or if you don't crit and crit HIGH soon.

    It suxxors to not have a heal that will actually come close to replenishing a tanks hps. I'm really hoping that when either the next correspondent is named or w/e they decide to do, that bigger heals in keeping with our role as clerics will be looked at alot more closely.
    Silye

  9. #39
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    celedine13 said in post #37 :


    This was the point of my post that you called ignorant, that we're ending up chaining patch heals like a druid or shaman. While I do disagree with you on the max tank hp issue, that is not the sole basis for feeling that we're falling behind in healing strength. You write of having multiple tools to mix up our healing strategies, yet you say in this post that you yourself end up chaining lights most of the time.

    I don't have a problem with changing strategies, nor am I too ignorant to figure out how to use the new tools we've been given. I'm simply suggesting a long standing and favorite tool that is now obsolete to be shinied up and made useful again. If the dev's intention is to get us away from chaining cheals, only to make us end up chaining lights, how does that change gameplay (aside from teaching us to duck at the last second and try to burn less mana)?
    If we talk about on a cast basis per unit time sure, lights are my most frequently cast heal on raids. This is because there isn't a way to stack up the other heals too well, only 1 person can cast elixirs, vies, Promised. If we're talking about lower DPS scripts like Commodus or Balreth in Solteris, where you have 1 healer to 1 or more tanks, then yes, you can use those heals more often than lights. I should have expanded upon what I meant more. It's a whole "it depends" thing.

    I am first and foremost a raider these days, but I still group when I can. Raiding takes up ~80 of my EQ time these days instead of around 60%. So forgive me for devling into my raider mindset in that comment. I do know it was referring to harsher dps in groups but I posted that post at like 3am.

    Groups, it depends on the dps, the higher the ADPS the more cushioning from lights for me. In general, I use elixir+ promised renewal with a the Omens light *now and then* (not even TSS/SoF), other stuff if spikes happen. If the content is stunnable, I'll stun. I'll also use SoF Vie rk2. That's not just chaining only lights at all in groups. If we talk outside of raids, the spell I do cast more often than the rest is Promised Renewal. If content is easy enough then it will be the only heal necessary.

    Whilst I may have said it has resulted in more of a shift like that, I did not say that it has resulted in *only* that shift.

    For spikes and regular healing, we have the better tools. That is what separates us from druids and shamen instead of the whole "we patch like them" situation. AI/SotF is nothing compared to everything we have for healing. Celedine, you could have brought up your point in a different way instead of the "well give us dots, ports" comment.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Silye said in post #38 :
    I completely agree with Key's post that once you fall behind tho , there isn't a very reliable way to get the tank back up in the safe zone if your &quot;tools&quot; (which are now necessities&quot are on timers or if you don't crit and crit HIGH soon.

    It suxxors to not have a heal that will actually come close to replenishing a tanks hps. I'm really hoping that when either the next correspondent is named or w/e they decide to do, that bigger heals in keeping with our role as clerics will be looked at alot more closely.
    Why the persistant digs Silye, just because I have a view of disagreement? Do you think heals have not been a concern at all of mine? Hell, just look at my list of submitted AAs for our class, I will list every single heal improving one (or something that impacts healing one way or another):

    General Sturdiness for Mana (+100/rank)
    Natural Durability type AA for Mana
    Innate Heroic stats (Heroic wis = more mana by a large deal, more possible FT given enough)
    Additional ranks of Abundant Healing
    Additional ranks of Expansive Mind (5 ranks, +1)
    Additional ranks of Mental Clarity (5 ranks, +1)
    Additional ranks of Healing Gift (3 ranks, +1%)
    Additional ranks of Healing Boon (3 ranks, +1%)
    Additional ranks of Mastery of the Past
    Next rank of Go*M
    Quick Buff (make buffs cap at 50% spell haste = faster cast elixirs)
    Quickened “Heal” (innate heal spell haste)
    An AA similar to abundant healing, but in addition to the chance of a HoT proccing with AH, this AA would proc an additional direct heal, further ranks raising the chance to 8% so that it is less than AH/Go*M, but also further strengthening the direct heal.
    An AA similar to Destructive Fury, but for heals. Raising the Crit Mod of heals from 2 (doubling) to 2.1, 2.2 etc… 3 ranks, 0.1 per rank?
    Additional ranks of Celestial Regeneration
    Improvements to Recourse of Life
    Hastened Celestial Regeneration
    Short term buff (2 minutes?) that makes all heals cast, both HoTs and direct, to have a 100% crit rate. (Perhaps limit it to a certain number of spells cast before fading, but not something so small in number that it fades after a mere handful of uses. 10 casts as minimum would be preferable if it had to have a limit. If necessary, could restrict to Direct heals).
    An AA that reduces the duration of Promised Renewal before firing by 1 tick. From 3 ticks base, to 2 ticks base. Resulting in a ~21s ‘average’ to a ~15s ‘average’.
    A 3 wave AE Rain heal AA; target unlimited but short (Pb) ae range.
    An AA direct group heal – (shared timer with Celestial Regeneration, perhaps instant like Celestial Regeneration or with a short cast time. Further ranks increasing the amount healed)
    An AA that reduces the recast timer for Desperate Renewal/Frantic Renewal line.
    An AA that improves the runic HP total of Vie spells by x% per rank, y ranks. So if a vie is 1k base and the AA is meant to improve by +50%, it would then have a runic total of 1500.
    Focused Celestial Regeneration – (5min reuse, single target HoT, shared timer with group Celestial Regeneration or unlinked. More concentrated in power in hp/tick, 4 base ticks?)
    AA that reduces the reuse on Divine Intervention from 90s to 60s, 10s per rank 3 ranks
    A form of the Exquisite Gift? GoD AA that did not make the cut, that returns X mana per rank once cast. Several ranks, each rank improving the amount returned. Reasonably long reuse.
    Hastened Divine Arbitration – reduces the reuse timer of DvA. Figures subject to what is deemed balanced.

    I'm sorry if that's not being concerned enough for you about more/easier healing.

    Just because I have opposing views to certain arguments != no concern at all.

    Healing adept wasn't there. Why? Rashere and the devs will not change their stance. Persistence has not change this.
    CH improvement wasn't there. Why? The devs do not under any circumstance want to enhance CH further. Such that they even changed Word of Redemption without saying that it was to change - I could only infer that it would from one conversation before the patch when it happened.

    Those are what I consider beating the dead horse. Maybe not for some clerics out there, but in the end EQ changes are down to the devs. Not myself or anyone else. Their decision is final, regardless of attempts to sway their minds.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-11-2008 at 04:39 AM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I do know that many classes atm do not have correspondents and that some changes to the program as a whole are supposed to be made soon. We don't even know yet what changes to this program will go in effect altho from my understanding it should be sooner rather than later.

    I never said anything in this post about your performance as correspondent. I also have no problem with you having a differing view, as far as i'm concerned the matter is dropped. I'm looking forward to the next expansion and hoping things improve for the cleric class.
    Silye

  12. #42
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Given how zatozia generally is speed wise, bank on the later than sooner heh. The reason why I say this is because she is already past the deadline for the changes by I think approaching a month at least. Though such has been the general trend with other changes.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    more aa's down the road, my heals still suxxors =/ however my wrist and fingers hurt more because i'm hitting buttons alot more often now.... I do get a break tho while i am medding .......
    Silye

  14. #44
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    if tank had 100,000 hps . and i can still heal as currently can , i could still out heal the inc dps . just more hps would make a nicer buffer on spikes. i would rather have a warrior with lots of ac then a hp tank anyhow. no , i would not want a 100.000 heal , there is no need when i already heal fine . if your tank is being overwhelmed then 1 : get a shm slower to help spot heal. 2: tank is out of his league in the zone your in. 3 : better pres/spell haste or cast hots before tanks agro and get sneaky ooc ticks and use arb to sneak in more medding ! think ican ninja 30 % mana in crys if i hot first not in combat, divine arb , then shield when tanks around 50 % ish.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Silye said in post #43 :
    more aa's down the road, my heals still suxxors =/ however my wrist and fingers hurt more because i'm hitting buttons alot more often now.... I do get a break tho while i am medding .......

    I didn't say the content wasn't healable, i said the heals still suxxor and i'm hitting alot more buttons more often. (btw i've used the div arb myself to sneak a bit of regen mana haha~good deal) I don't think I understand the "shield" part tho?

    I think the best way to describe how i feel is just to say the cleric healing power has been scaled back in this expansion, I think this trend will continue as we continue getting expansions. At this point, I am more worried with what is going to happen to clerics as a class in the next expansion than I am with how much more attentive and button pushing I have to be as a cleric in this expansion. (altho i dislike it) I think the biggest problem I have with viewing it as a solely "inc dps" situation is that it's not the way i heal.

    I don't want to argue tho, I know other classes will never be able to heal as efficiently as clerics, yadda yadda. I've read the posts, I even understood prob 3/4 of them, so I'm honestly not trying to spark a debate =)
    Silye

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