View Poll Results: What do you think clerics need most in the game?

Voters
47. You may not vote on this poll
  • invis plz * hands tunare an invis scroll* read this plz

    19 40.43%
  • More Undead debuffs and Dmg * I want to make undead fear the cleric again*

    10 21.28%
  • Heals < There allways room for more heals in my spell book*

    12 25.53%
  • sight based buffs * see invis ect* For those D@D buffs true sight ect

    0 0%
  • Other < I have posted below somthing not in this poll*

    6 12.77%
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Thread: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I agree with Celedine. Make our complete heal worth using again. I would spend the aa's on it if that was an option no doubt.

    Invis isn't very important to me atm. DK cloak works fine and I can even invis others. I keep a few invis pots around for those emergencies.

    More damage to undead would be nice.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    2,895

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    ok..

    i spent some time in factory today. we need bigger heals lol

    8k heal doesn't cut it. all i did was spam light over and over and praying DvA and epic were ready if a bad damage spike hapened.

    CH was out of the question.....

    we would kill about 10 mobs then have to wait for me to med.

    granted this is one of the toughest zones in the game, but still, healing a 20k+ tank getting hit by 3k hitting trash mobs using only an 8k heal is very stressfull to say the least. now they did tell me they normaly take a second priest, but still. we need a bigger heal, double the light spell, same cast and maybe 1200 mana. the light II is over 900 mana for 8k or so hp.

    anyway, we had 3 deaths in an 8 aa time period. only one of them my fault, other were pulling deaths. the one that was my fult was because i was typing..i still have to look at the keys ;-P

    we got a marrow and a loam so was all good too.

    but gimie a bigger heal!

    Keyera
    105 cleric
    Undivided Faith
    Drinal




    Sprinting over the fields, swinging a mighty hammer, cometh Keyera! And she gives a bloodthirsty roar:

    "I'm going to bludgeon you into the stuff of nightmares!"

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    1. a new updated Complete Heal would be awesome

    2. an AE Rez!!! talk about cutting down time on raids!

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Wow, AE rez would be really awesome. I never dreamed to consider the idea of such a thing.

    Recruiting officer of Unending Twilight

  5. #20
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    42

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    If they arent willing to give us an invis, I cant see them giving us an AE rez. Who knows though =p

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    lol.. mebbe.. though the differance is.. clerics have never had a plain invis.. while we were given and improved our itu.. on the same note.. we have always had a rezz.. so mebbe since it would not "chamge" our intended class dynamics.. we might have a better chance of getting an AE rezz or group rezz.. mebbe... possibly? please?

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I voted for the Heals. We need to keep up with our "roll" of the ultimate healer and 24K+ Tanks need us to pack a bigger punch in the healing department.

    Although the concept of a self only invis is a good desire, I do not see any class point for it --Necros needed it because of the Dark nature of thier magic and the true casters as a whole, it makes sense; even the hybrids it is fine. Druids can meld into thier surroundings and the shammy can "shift" to the spirit realm, but Clerics were always to be "seen" among the "heathens"...why move around invisible. The pots are good enough IMHO, yes I carry upwards of 100 and that will last me for a week or so. What I would desire is to make the pots a set duration across the board, not 5 seconds and the audio trigger fires!!

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    We need bigger return on our heals. CH can crit for what ? 19350 or something like that ? This hardly cuts it when on raids we have a 30-32K tank buffed. SL heals for what ? maybe 8Kish on average, and 13-16K on a crit ? I really think heals are priority over anything else atm, based on what I have seen from higher end raids. How do you heal a 30K tank when raiding in MMM when ya best heal only heals for 8K unless you crit ?

  9. #24
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    234

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I really think heals are priority over anything else atm, based on what I have seen from higher end raids. How do you heal a 30K tank when raiding in MMM when ya best heal only heals for 8K unless you crit ?
    By having a set of people dedicated to keeping the people taking the damage alive and properly set up groups, just as you do with raids in general. (It doesn't have to be a huge set of people, can be as few as 2 or 3 for Main Tank(s), on some events even 1 healer per tank is sufficient, or one healer for 2-3+ tanks)

    It's kind of ironic, but A:HL is still useable even when raiding MMM, just as it is in Solteris, and had been in TSS/PoR/DoDH/DoN.

    Healing isn't about always keeping/recovering to max hp, but keeping up with rates of normal/spike damage well enough so that people don't die/are kept above a stable/safe hp%; done with efficiency so that you don't drop lom fast.

    More healing is always good, but personally I really dislike the Max hp arguments as justification for needing more (especially given that there isn't the mention of how much AC and its effects on the inc damage). The tanks I raid with are 28-34k in hp range, forget if that's with or without Circle of Divinity (myself raid buffing to over 26k? I guess). That range is only going to increase as we get more Tier3/4 raid gear. Their AC ranges from 4k+ buffed w/o shields.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-06-2008 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    154

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Lluianae said in post #24 :

    More healing is always good, but personally I really dislike the Max hp arguments as justification for needing more
    The max HP is the best yardstick to understand the scaling of power from expansion to expansion (at least in terms of healing). For instance, even only going as far back as OOW Cheal would pretty much fill up a tank's HP on a standard rotation, hence why it remained our mainstay of heal strat. Not having a way to reliably refill a tank's HP eliminates our primary use on raids.

    I equate it to making a mage use his level 50 pet in a level 80 zone. The damage that the pet does is no longer the same proportion to a given mob's health, which is why mages got new pets. By the same token, the damage that mobs do has gone up, the amount of HP to heal has gone up, but our heals have not scaled to match. You wouldn't expect a wizard to use a lvl 39 nuke in SoF raids, why should clerics be expected to have to use a lvl 39 heal?

    So instead we patch heal. If we're going to do that, why not reroll a druid or shammy and get 2nd Life and some useful dots in the bargain?
    Celedine Crashcart
    80 Exemplar of Tunare
    Retired Hussy

  11. #26
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    234

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Heh in OoW/DoN, CH didn't fill up a tank's HP unless it critted if it hit at low health. Though I guess half does depend on how geared the tank was in mitigation/hp and how tight the rotation was, combined with patches. It was since Darkhollow? That raid geared tanks started to get more hp than what CH could crit for and yes, it has grown more since then.

    It's all about damage rates, if damage was harsher on a given mob, it was wise to tighten the rotation/add another cleric to do so. Higher DPS needed higher HPS. Not because the tank wasn't being healed to full each time, but because the interval between heals landing needed to be faster or the mob would have a higher likelyhood of killing a tank.

    Similarly, each expansion mob dps generally goes up. To counter this, hp/ac/mods/effects on gear and buffs go up. DPS reducing debuf capabilities, to a limited extent, also go up. But to further counter this, healing in terms of HPS also goes up (and to a minor extent lately instead of more moderately, efficiency).

    Our elixirs go up in /tick healed, our lights get a larger base, our remedy gets a larger base, PR gets a larger base in general, etc. Purposefully, so the devs can design content that is harsher than previously.

    You wouldn't expect a wizard to use a lvl 39 nuke in SoF raids, why should clerics be expected to have to use a lvl 39 heal?
    By design, we aren't intended to (fwiw). But some guilds are still using it out of their choice and that has, to some extent, been an expectation. That guilds will use it out of choice, not because it's necessary for the [SoF] encounters.

    So instead we patch heal. If we're going to do that, why not reroll a druid or shammy and get 2nd Life and some useful dots in the bargain?
    I'm sorry but to me, this quote is ignorant. You do know how potent a few good clerics are with blast heals in the right group setups, right? You can do things you otherwise couldn't with extremely low healer numbers than if you depended upon CH for everything, and this is a fact my guild, as others, can attest to. Using our lights does not make us druid or shaman like, in fact, we don't just have to use regular patches. Arbitrations, Desperate/Frantic Renewal, Promised, Elixirs, 11th - all can be used skillfully to manage with DPS rates. Even without the use of CH, we are still the most powerful healer to have on raids, by a significant margin.

    Anyway... if Inc DPS is outdoing our outgoing HPS from healing, then yes, we have a problem. But the max hp argument just doesn't fly.
    Last edited by Lluianae; 02-06-2008 at 05:24 PM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    17

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    tank- 25k (plenty of aa's , decent geared)
    mob dps- quadding 4k and on haste crack apparently
    ME - 5kish heal, 5kish heal, (please tunare crit crit) tank hp is now 50 health, (of course i've done burned epic, divarb, on the mob previous to this one) yay a crit tank health is now 75 % (me-ACK!), 5kish heal, 5kish heal, (relight spell gem faster!!!)

    I'm not cutting edge geared, I've not spent alot of time in the new zones due to doing progression tasks so i've not got any rk2 spells. I do however feel as an 80 cleric with 16k ish mana-buffed and 800 aa's ( a little low aye, i raid too much =/) i should be able to heal effectively and without a secondary healer in almost any non raid zone in the new expansion. Either make my spell gems come back faster or give me bigger heals (and pls don't tell me i have to take in account for a "maybe" crit that may or may not come when i need it) cuz my "upgraded" heals are not cutting it the way a clerics heals should, this is my class defining ability and should be the best.

    I don't agree with how tanks are suddenly jumping to 30k raid buffed and i have a 5kish heal.... and i'm spamming heals that are not recovering a tanks lost hp unless it crits =/

    p.s. i have alot of respect for the people who post here regularly and would hate to offend. I've read this board for a long time without posting once lol but this subject bothers me , especially if spells continue in this trend.
    Silye

  13. #28
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    234

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    Healing still is our class defining ability, by a significant margin (as said before).

    But it's incorrect to say how our heal is only for 5k. Base, sure (Solemn2 is 5070), but that's not what it heals for consistently unless the heals are landing a tad early. With adept alone, it's 6540. With a 30% heal focus, the average is gonna be ~7326 per cast without crits, with a 45% heal focus (the best available in Crystallos).

    Although chances are, if you've raided and obtained a 30% sh focus to 70+, A:HL is the given spell to use as the speed difference with sacred+ is noticeable. 5353 with adept alone, average of 6308 with 45% heal focus without crits.

    As much as it's wise to not depend on crits when you're healing, it's not going to happen simply ignoring that they can and do occur which inevitably raises the average expected heal from a given light. Whether we like that fact or not, they are taken into account when it comes to mob ADPS balancing.

    Whilst a mob may be able to hit for ~4k max in Crystallos, they are not hitting for that every single time. Given the 20 DI spread, thinking of the potential rounds can be a bit boggling. However, full blown spikes are not the norm. Even 4/4 hits in a given quad is not the norm at all. Sure it happens, now and then. Assuming <50% accuracy, it will be missing more often than it hits. With sufficient tank mitigation/atk &/or str debuffing, the mob's going to be hitting for min more than any other hit. Factor in slow/vies and our other heals besides lights and that's how you have [group] content that is still healable by us pretty well.

    This is why I dislike the Max HP, and max mob hit argument(s). They only look at one (imo skewed) portion of the whole situation. Whilst a mob may hit for 6k and quad, it may not be the nastiest dps mob ever once debuffed (Hatchet). Whilst a mob may only hit for 3k max quad, it could be more dps than Hatchet (MMM trash I guess), who hits harder. It's not taking to account the hit spread, the swing rate, the mob accuracy % nor the time factor.

    For what it's worth, in Crystallos ATK reduction has a significant impact. Said to be moreso than shaman slow (given slow mitigation), but this I have not verified with parses. However, I have done the zone with just a druid for debuffs several times without slow.

    Please note, I have never once said that we do not need more healing (more is always a good thing). Only that people are open to learning more about it all, and that it's not so simple as y HP vs x heal.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    i can't rely on getting my tanks hps back up without using tools like divarb/epic/promised renewal - all of which are on Timers and may or may not be available to me when i have mobs incoming as soon as the mob is dead in camp. Of course i am relying on crits to a certain extent or i wouldn't even bother going to these zones.

    Look at it like this if you can, a 30k tank divided by 6kish heal. Without any heals , how long can that tank stay alive? Not ten seconds because if he could i could use complete heal again lol. Yet, taking in account the time to cast ahl /light heals and healing for less and waiting on spell gems to relight (without having divarb etc.. available) that puts clerics in a none too reliable position of healing which frankly seems a bit skewed to me as it's my primary job in any group.

    I'm looking at this solely from my own experiences in these zones. My spells should reflect the growing hps of the tanks available to me and it simply doesn't in this expansion.
    Last edited by Silye; 02-09-2008 at 08:45 AM.
    Silye

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: POll: What do you think clerics need most in the game ?

    I'm going to add this and i'll probably prune my previous post a bit as it just sounds like i'm arguing lol

    I don't talk about mob slows/debuffs and mitigation because i would assume that by now everyone knows what kind of group makeup works the best for them. I'm not going trotting off to some new zone without a slower/cc/puller or a 8k tank =) etc... I'm talking about mostly groups with raid gear and a good deal more aa's than me on most occasions. I'm not arguing with anyone, (max hp/max dps argument? not here)

    I think clerics needed a better upgrade to their heal spells. I haven't seen anyone say they would say no to a bigger heal regardless of what grounds they base it on as being needed. I don't really care what reason is given if it gets results.

    I've healed in zones like SHIP and SF etc... it's definitely taking a bit of strategy to heal and still be effective in groups (hello old med breaks /grrrrrr -i do tend to overheal) I would like to see bigger heals take more importance in discussions about our class with devs/whoever...meanwhile i group /raid onward best i can because it's what i enjoy doing atm. I've been doing it for a few years now and dealt with much of what everyone else has dealt with. I can quite see the problems with clerics being given some kind of awesome heal (too many hydras as it is) but i think EQ went a bit backwards with trying to attain a balance. Hopefully next expansion we'll be scaled upwards to our tanks a bit more.
    Silye

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